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Where the arguments fail for "Roe v. Wade for Men" and the Women's Movement
Location: BlogsDivorced Dad Daily   
Posted by: Danny Guspie9/23/2007
The woman carries and gives birth to the child, while the man has no continuing role in procreation...(FRI Executive Director Danny Guspie responds: I guess this law professor never attended any classes in economics.... Professors like Grossman fought for the legal fiction that the child is not legally person. That is the basis of all abortion rights. Therefore if abortion is legal for women,on this basis, it must be for men - any other consideration is irrelevant unless you outlaw all abortion, quash divorce and force people through law to be responsible for their procreation. Are we ready for that yet? Lets not be intellectually dishonest Professor Grossman...did you miss the photograph's of a living fetus in Life Magazine in the 70"s? You can't have it both ways - We the "Sons of the Liberation" won't let you. We’re only asking for the rights you taught us we all had....

This is one of the most intellectually dishonest pieces of codswallop I've have ever read about the Matt Dubay - "Roe v. Wade for Men" case so far...

Here's why:

Learned professor  JOANNA GROSSMAN  writes: "The woman carries and gives birth to the child, while the man has no continuing role in procreation..."

  

FRI Executive Director Danny Guspie responds:

 

Why then do you want my wallet if I have no continuing role in procreation?

 

I guess that's because you never attended any classes in economics Professor Grossman....nor do you understand the basis of this lawsuit, nor the basis of child support -The continuing role of the father in procreation is that basis - any other argument is pure intellectual dishonesty. 

 

Professors just like you fought for the legal fiction that the child is not legally a person. Now we want to test the limits of this artifice - That's because it is the entire basis of abortion rights for women, and by extension the basis of Mr. Dubay's claim.

 

Therefore, we contend if abortion is legal for women, it must be also be legal for men - the child does not legally exist after all. So the only way for a man to have equality is the right to opt out of fatherhood while the child is not legally a person - After all the woman can have an abortion or choose to be a single Mom without my involvement by the father under your own definition that: "The woman carries and gives birth to the child, while the man has no continuing role in procreation..."

 

Any other consideration is irrelevant. Unless of course you outlaw abortion, quash divorce and force people through law to be responsible for their procreation. That would include women like you.

 

Are we ready for that yet? I don't think so (even if I wish we really were....). I'm going to bet neither are you.

 

And if I have to explain why, I submit that's why our respective nations are so bereft of real leadership: Because those of you who are the most privileged, have no real ability to cognitively reason in an objective manner that resonates with the masses.

 

In plain English - Your reasoning sucks.

 

You of the Intelligentsia come up with what YOU consider to be clever reasoning that YOU can foist upon those they deem to be intellectually challenged.

 

May I suggest you and your comrades read the Dr. Seuss classic - Yertle the Turtle. It's a classic kid’s book that teaches the turtle at the top of the pile, that his fate is entirely in the hands of the turtle at the bottom of the stack.

 

Currently that would be the son's of the mother's who bought into women's liberation in the 70's. Men like me - Those who have raised children, while going to school while the Family Court , allows the mother to be irresponsible.

 

That's what is really happening here, the heroine of the story lied (as if that's uncommon...). Is she willing to provide her medical records of infertility? Can Mr. Dubay demonstrate what was said and to whom?

 

Mr. Dubay is only exercising the rights he has come to expect from the philosophy he was taught in schools that are mostly controlled by women like you. It's about him, which coincidentally is what such legal fictions are always all about "ME" vs. "US".

 

C'mon – it’s time to come clean - Let's not be intellectually dishonest in your arguments professor...or did you miss the photographs of the living fetus in Life Magazine in the 1970"s?

 

You cannot have it both ways - We the "Sons of the Liberation" won't let you. We’re only asking for the rights your mentors taught us we all had when we were little boys, latch key kids and carrying our kids in back sacks in the 80's and 90's....

 

If you want abortion, so do we - that's what your mentors taught us to demand. If you want equal pay for equal work, we want equal parenting for equal procreation.

 

Less than that has no heart, nor resonates with ordinary people.

 

The real problem here is selfishness: That of the mother, who lied to Mr. Dubay, and that of Mr. Dubay whom did not take responsibility for his own procreation I guess he missed the latest episode of Maury...but I'm betting the mother didn't. ;-)

 

On a personal note, I believe everyone is responsible for their procreation and that includes Mr. Dubay. However, we have an unjust law and this is the evolution of that law to a more perfect union of diverging views.

 

Remember - democrcay?

 

Ultimately you're on the losing end of an argument at this juncture of history. The one constant in history is change, and that kids rectify the mistakes of parents. Our children will not accept such unfair logic as is in your argument below.

 

While this case may be lost at Court this round, it will not be lost in the Court of Public Opinion, even kids know what is intrinsically fair.

 

Mr. Dubay's case is one example of rectification of a selfish law.

 

I think he's wrong, I think he should step up and be Dad but not for the reasons you've listed. I think he would find it a transformative experience, that wil shape his entire life, having raised a daughter and son by myself. But given the way Family Court operates today, I can appreciate how he might feel...its controlled by the fuzzy logic of self-absorbed professors like yourself.

 

Finally, abortion is a poor form of birth control; women who grow up without a dad are ignorant about boys and more often end up single mothers or having multiple abortions. Both kids should be using birth control instead of blindly trusting each other. That's what a responsible parent teaches their child.

 

That's what gender equity was about, or was supposed to be about.

 

Not the selfishness of the ME generation or GEn X.

 

And no gender has a lock on being selfless or selfishness?

 

Wouldn't you agree? Probably not - it undermines your entire argument which has its roots in the haze of free love and drugs of the 70's.

 

Feminism was about I can do anything a man can do.

 

The "Sons of the Liberation" believe they can do anything their Mom can do. Time for you and your ilk to take ownership of the Frankenstein’s you made us all become (LOL...)

 

The truth is the extremes of  sex without consequences is an unrealistic proposition if you don't extend the same franchise of abortion to men, in the only way available to them - their wallets. Calling them names, no matter how much you tart it up as sophistry is still asking your son to sit in the back of the bus, no matter how well you whitewash it.

 

Right?

 

Danny Guspie

Executive Director

Fathers Resources International

 

----
"Roe v. Wade for Men"? A Men's Rights Group Makes A Farfetched Claim for Avoidance of Child Support


By JOANNA GROSSMAN
lawjlg@hofstra.edu
----

Wednesday, Mar. 22, 2006

In a recent, controversial lawsuit, Matt Dubay, a 25-year-old computer programmer, challenges a court order directing him to pay $500 per month in child support.

Dubay alleges that when he engaged in sexual relations with his girlfriend, he was relying on her assurances that, due to a medical condition, she was unable to get pregnant, and that, in any case, she was using some form of contraception to be absolutely safe. He also alleged that he clearly informed her that he was not interested in becoming a parent at that point in time.

However, just three months into their relationship, she conceived a daughter - to whom she ultimately gave birth. Dubay now would like to disclaim any paternal responsibility toward the child - and asks the court to strike down the child support order as unconstitutional.

This order, Dubay's suit claims, violates his reproductive rights. The argument was crafted by the National Center for Men (NCM), a nonprofit group with the stated mission to "educat[e] the public about how men are hurt by sex discrimination."

While Dubay's suit has gotten an unusual amount of press, his allegations are not unusual. Indeed, lawsuits based on exactly parallel facts have been pursued in a host of jurisdictions, using a variety of legal theories. Across the board, they have failed. For the reasons explained below, Dubay's suit will likely fail too.

Using the Constitution to Avoid Child Support? A Losing Pursuit

When the Saginaw County, Michigan prosecutor ordered him to pay child support, Dubay alleges, it violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution by treating him differently because he is a man.

Under Roe v. Wade, women have the ability to avoid procreation by making the decision to abort. Under state law, they also have a greater ability in many cases to control the decision whether a child is put up for adoption because states require unwed fathers to jump through technical hoops - hoops they often are not aware of -- in order to have a say in the decision. Men, Dubay thus complains, have substantially less opportunity to decline parenthood once conception occurs. For the legal situation to be equal, men must be afforded equal, or at least comparable, opportunity to avoid or decline fatherhood after the fact, just as women can avoid or decline motherhood.

In a separate column yesterday, Sherry Colb discussed men's and women's relative rights to escape parental responsibility by giving a child up for adoption. Here, I will discuss the constitutional Equal Protection doctrine that governs the claim Dubay did make, as well as the fraud claim he might have made (but didn't).

The "Similarly Situated" Requirement: Deeming Pregnant Women Unique

The Equal Protection Clause embodies a commitment to formal equality: It mandates that likes be treated alike. It thus only guarantees that men and women be treated the same to the extent they are "similarly situated."

This limitation has operated in many respects as an obstacle to women's quest for equality. For example, the Equal Protection Clause does not protect against pregnancy discrimination. In Geduldig v. Aiello, the Supreme Court held that classification based on pregnancy is not a classification based on sex, even though only women get pregnant. And since "pregnant persons" are not similarly situated to "non-pregnant persons," the Court reasoned, there is no constitutional guarantee that the groups be treated alike.

To some extent, federal and state laws equating pregnancy and sex discrimination, and prohibiting both, negate the practical effect of this holding. Governments can - but need not - go beyond what the Constitution requires, and here, they have. Thus, most employers are forbidden to discriminate on the basis of pregnancy, but the ban is a product of enacted statutes rather than constitutional guarantees.

As a matter of pure constitutional doctrine, pregnancy is a unique condition and pregnant women are a unique group - they cannot make claims to equal treatment vis-à-vis any other group. While this analytical anomaly usually operates to disadvantage pregnant women - a frequent target of discriminatory treatment -- here it works against a man like Dubay.

How the Requirement Applies At Different Stages of Potential and Actual Parenthood

Before conception, men and women are arguably "similarly situated" with respect to potential procreation. Both have the ability to abstain from sexual contact that might result in pregnancy. Both also have the right, under the Supreme Court's privacy jurisprudence, to make use of available contraceptives to avoid pregnancy.

But that is where the similarity ends.

After a child is conceived, the mother and father are no longer similarly situated. The woman carries and gives birth to the child, while the man has no continuing role in procreation. The woman's unique, physical role in this process is constitutionally significant, and she thus has control over whether to continue with or terminate the pregnancy, as long as she exercises her decision within valid limits set by state law. (If those limits impose an "undue burden" on her exercise of her rights, however, they will be invalidated.)

Once the child is born, the similarities between mother and father re-emerge. Mothers and fathers are, in theory, equally liable to support the child, with the liability adjusted based on their means and the child's needs. Married mothers and fathers have essentially identical parental rights, and those rights, which include the right to the care, control, and custody of the child, are fundamental and thus cannot be abrogated by the state without a compelling reason.

Unwed fathers do not automatically have parental rights, but instead must follow statutory procedures to earn them. Although those procedures vary from state to state, most are derived from a line of Supreme Court cases in the 1970s and 1980s that outlined the constitutional minimum for the rights of unwed fathers. In most states, an unwed father can gain parental rights - and thus the ability to argue for custody and visitation or to veto an adoption - if he has admitted paternity, openly behaved as a father to a child, or lived with or subsequently married the child's mother. He may also file with the state's "putative father" registry in case the mother never informs him about her pregnancy or the child's birth. A father will also have legal rights (and concomitant obligations) if his paternity has been adjudicated or if the mother has listed him on the birth certificate or otherwise identified him as the father. If any of these requirements have been satisfied, an unwed father has rights similar to those of unwed mothers.

Let's return to Dubay's claim. Taken together, the constitutional guarantees and statutory rules mean that Dubay's claim must fail. Before the child was conceived, Dubay and his girlfriend both had - but did not exercise - the same right to avoid procreative behavior. During the period he and the child's mother were not similarly situated - while she was pregnant - they did not have the same rights and the constitution does not say that they must.

Now, they are similarly situated - they are both the biological parents of a child in need of support - and accordingly, they have the same rights and obligations. The fact that he does not want to be a father is constitutionally irrelevant. (For all we know, his ex-girlfriend does not want to be a mother - but may have become one because she does not believe in abortion.)

As the highest court in New York held in a similar case, Pamela P. v. Frank S., "[the father's] constitutional entitlement to avoid procreation does not encompass a right to avoid a child support obligation simply because another person has not fully respected his desires in this regard. However unfairly [the father] may have been treated by [the mother's] failure to allow him an equal voice in the decision to conceive a child, such a wrong does not rise to the level of a constitutional violation."

Suing for Fraud? Not Alleged Here, but Also a Losing Pursuit

Dubay does have another option, though - but one that has been generally unsuccessful in these kinds of cases. He has not yet done so, but in theory, he could sue the mother of his child for fraud - legally defined as an intentional, knowing misrepresentation, reliance upon which causes another person injury. Here, the "injury" would be Dubay's having to pay child support.

If Dubay won this claim, the child support order would still remain intact. But even though he'd have to comply with it, he might be able to use the money damages from the fraud claim to do so, at least for a while.

Even if a court were willing to apply conventional tort principles here - treating this kind of "fraud" as it would a fraud in the business context - the mother might still have strong defenses.

Was her misrepresentation really intentional and knowing? Or did she make an honest mistake - believing a doctor's mistaken pronouncement of her infertility, or forgetting she'd forgotten to take the pill that day?

And what, exactly, is the injury here? It is not clear why the birth of a normal, healthy child is "injurious" in the way that other torts are. (Courts have, by contrast, permitted recovery for intentional misrepresentations about sterility, birth control, or sexual health where the misled party contracts a sexually transmitted disease, or suffers an ectopic pregnancy that requires surgical intervention. There, the injuries are obvious.)

Finally, even if the rights facts were alleged and proven, courts have been unwilling to apply conventional tort principles to this type of case. A "purely legalistic" approach, in the words of one court, would be inappropriate for a case involving such private conduct and interaction between two adults. (A California court suggested that the inquiry into the facts by a court would itself violate the parties' constitutional right to privacy and control over reproductive decisionmaking.)

Under state child support laws, monetary obligations to children are determined based solely on parental income and children's needs, without regard to any parental misconduct and without consideration of the parents' relative desire to become parents. Courts have thus refused to apply tort or contract principles in a way that negates or undermines those calculations.

Regardless of the Theory, Public Policy Dictates Against Permitting Lawsuits Based on Unplanned Pregnancies

Whether the claim is rooted in the Constitution or in tort principles, there are myriad public policy considerations, most of which weigh against recognition of a claim for unplanned pregnancies.

First and foremost, the welfare of children is paramount. Children have obvious needs, and the best way to satisfy them is to impose support obligations on both parents. The "better them than us" argument - a reference to the state's (and taxpayers') role in providing assistance to needy families - is persuasive to courts, and leads them to find parental obligations of support to be virtually absolute.

Second, the private nature of the conduct involved in these cases makes judicial intervention of any kind undesirable. The Due Process Clause of the Constitution protects individuals against unwarranted intrusions into decisions about consensual sexual relationships and procreation. Recognizing a claim under either an equal protection or fraud theory might independently contravene those rights by giving courts license to intrude into parties' reproductive behavior and decisionmaking.

Third, the subjective nature of the inquiry here makes it unlikely that courts would uncover the "truth" in most cases. This is a classic "he said, she said" situation: In most cases there will be no witnesses or other tangible evidence to prove whether a misrepresentation was made or, if it was, whether the other party relied on it when engaging in sexual conduct. Would Dubay really have abstained from sex with his girlfriend if he had known pregnancy was a possibility? It will be hard for a court to answer that question with any confidence in its finding.

Regret is a powerful force, and many people facing an unplanned pregnancy (or birth) experience it. That regret might be an inducement to lie about what was said and done prior to conception - especially if doing so enabled an unwilling father to avoid nearly two decades of child support payments. No wonder, then, that most states have abolished so-called "heart balm actions" such as wrongful seduction, or breach of promise to marry, out of fear of false claims - claims by women non-marital sex was either accompanied by a promise of marriage or procured by deception.

Finally, one might consider that the recognition of these claims would give an incentive for abortion in some cases. More women might terminate pregnancies if they know they will bear sole financial responsibility for the resulting child. While it is important that women have the right to terminate a pregnancy, unnecessary economic hardship due to the father's abdication of his obligations should not push them to make that decision.

The author would like to thank her colleagues at Hofstra Law School who, in a lively e-mail exchange, both piqued her interest in the case and pointed her to some of the most relevant sources to analyze it.

What Do You Think? Message Boards


Joanna Grossman, a FindLaw columnist, is a professor of law at Hofstra University. Her columns on family law, trusts and estates, and discrimination, including sex discrimination and sexual harassment, may be found in the archive of her columns on this site.

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FOLLOW THE MONEY...

Good article here on child support enforcement being improved by having a joint custody presumption in Michigan:

Note the following - the industrialization of child support as an adjunct to "The Divorce Industry"

One thousand seven hundred employees now work full-time in Friend of the Court offices as referees, counselors, clerks, and support staff in all 83 Michigan counties. In addition, many employees of the criminal justice system devote a major portion of their workday to this last vestige of debtor's prison.

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“The Beatles: An Authorized Biography” by Hunter Davies spoke to me like no other book I’d ever read before. I was a well read kid at that point, having read everything I could get my hands on from the moment I could read which would be somewhere around age four when my mother taught me the alphabet with a set of plastic letters that had magnets and a board to move them around on…

The Book: A wondrous tale happy, sad and true (or at least so I believed at that age…) that I related to. Mainly because of John Lennon’s family history, there was something very familiar and haunting about it, despite many things that were not held in common between our respective families. It was his quintessential Rock n’ Roll vocal – he seemed like the real deal (at a time when my family seemed like a charade…). I could not only hear his pain, but I could feel it – it gave expression to my own.

So began a love affair of a different sort, one of a young boy who’d found a kindred spirit, who wanted to know why he’d been so deeply affected by this story. It was not to be the first or the last time John Lennon would profoundly shape my development and independence in the same way Elvis Presley did for Lennon at age 15…

Arguably, Lennon’s music and the Beatles were the most influential aspect of my young life, helping me to feel hope, happiness and providing a language to articulate express and begin creating my own identity during my family crisis and resulting divorce. I always knew my parents were troubled from age 1 onwards. But at age 9 I became extremely cognizant that the end of my family was nigh.

John gave me an outlet. A very healthy one. He taught me how to transform pain into art. Music has always been my greatest outlet to expression. But John taught me how to scream. Really scream in a Rock n’ Roll way - Once I heard his first solo album when I was 12. I began my own form of primal therapy. When I heard him sing “Mother” I finally felt I wasn’t the only one who felt the same pain over a family that had large problems.

I absorbed Rock n’ Roll totally. It gave me a reason to get up everyday. Even today Little Richard’s “Wop bop a loo bop a wop bam boom…gets me “rockin’” I’m sure anyone who hears me play today, and who has heard my songs can easily see that John Lennon and Keith Richards made a huge and everlasting impression on me musically.

So I began playing drums and songwriting, and emulating John. Within 12 months my parents separated and ultimately divorced and I became a latch key kid, living with dad first then Mom, then on my own. So began my lifelong journey with divorce - But before I left home, I became a full fledged drop out. Spare was my favorite class in High School (with “high” being the operative word….)

At age 14 I was playing guitar, hooky on a daily basis, had done an enormous amount of drugs of all sorts and on weekends go to watch the film Rolling Stones “Gimme Shelter” - 35 times to be exact at CineCity. I was also fanatical film watcher at the “Original 99 cent Roxy Theatre” long before the Rocky Horror Picture Show destroyed and closed that theatre down for good. It was a good place to hang and get high with minimal fuss and forget the mess my life was because of my own unhappiness with my family.

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9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Love's grand - Divorce is a Hundred Grand ;-)
Yes, say two University of Virginia sociologists who found that married women are happiest with a sensitive guy who earns most of the family's money. Women are also willing to take on more housework if they feel their husbands pay attention to them, and they feel the arrangement is "fair," if not equal.
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

The REAL problem with unilateral no-fault divorce
"The problem with unilateral no-fault divorce is that it hurts women by removing the incentive for the moneyed spouse (who is usually the husband) to make a settlement,"
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Divorced Dad in South Dakota takes MASSIVE ACTION
NORTH DAKOTA: Secretary of state OKs child custody initiative by Divorced Dad - He has until August to get nearly 13,000 signatures to get it on the ballot for a state-wide vote.
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Divorced Dad and Actor Alec Baldwin writes book on Family Court

Actor Alec Baldwin is writing a book about child custody cases after enduring a heartbreaking custody battle for his daughter, Ireland. "The book is not necessarily a memoir about my own situation, because no matter what you do, no matter how difficult this process is, you've got to keep in mind the other party is still the co-parent of your child, so you've got to be careful there."

The day is soon coming where we will hit critical mass - Change will come about because even the famous, rich and powerful who have been burned so badly in Family Court will make it their life's work to make change possible.

I really like that he says: "...you've got to keep in mind the other party is still the co-parent of your child."

9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Divorced Dads Unite: "ISN'T CHILD SUPPORT FOR THE CHILD?" - Part two
TAKE ACTION - Children of Divorce should not be paying down the national debt.
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

"Why do wives walk out of marriage?

It's a good question...

The Angry Dad: "Why do wives walk out of marriage? When my wife first asked for a divorce, a lawyer called me, asked me a few questions, and then tried to convince me that she was leaving me for another man. 'Who is the boyfriend?', he asked."

The reason wives leave is there is no incentive to stay.

Many attorneys simply advise: "I can get you the kids, house, car, savings, child support and alimony. Get him to leave..."

The soon to be ex-wife (S2BX) launches a disingenuous campaign of misery (not hard because she is the miserable one...).

Dad leaves to keep the peace and the rest of the story you already know. If you're reading this, you're living it: Most men were willing to overlook this character defect when they married their wives, believing love would prevail…

Men need to teach each other the skills to avoid, circumvent or address these problems before, during and after marriage.

I know because I was successful, raised 2 kids as a stay at home, went back to school, became a law clerk and now help dads all day long to successfully stickhandle their matters in Family Court...

I’m also an adult child of divorce, step dad, and activist too for national divorce reform too, so I see it from many differing perspectives.

Men must step and accept their power to make change, and exercise it. And we will. But first they have to stop finding “BAD GIRLS” exciting enough to marry.

They always turn on you (and on in doing so, on the kids) in the end.

Danny Guspie
Executive Director

"WE HELP DIVORCED DADS WAGE PEACE IN FAMILY COURT"
http:http://www.fathers-resources.com/http://www.fathers-resources.com/fathers-resources.com
http:http://www.fathers-resources.com/http://www.fathers-resources.com/Divorced-Dad-Daily.blogspot.com

 

9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Another Adult Child of Divorce Speaks Out - Adults Suck

Great piece here: "As a child of divorce between two parents with few differences other than conflicting outlooks - the kid left in me wants to scream stop it any way you can even if it means you have to drop to your knees and plead."

Most adults just don't get it - Unless you've gone through it as a child, you cannot possibly know anything about what us "children of divorce" go through. My comment - "Adults Suck" especially when they forget their childhood, humanity, responsibilities and selfishly place their needs above their obligations to their children.

You would think Judges, the most educated members of society would get that. But they don't. and we've seen plenty of cases just like this:

A father who has had his kids for many, many years finally gets an order of child support. He's forced to keep going to Family Court, spend money, and not get any support for the kids, for excuses that would never be tolerated if the roles were reversed. What woman waits years for such an order? Oh and he doesn't get an order of enforcement of child support by the Family Responsibility Office. The Judge turned down what is a routine order in every child support matter in Ontario - enforcement.

This particular mother and the way the Court has let her off the hook for years epitomizes everything bigoted about Family Court. He told the Judge that his kids were begging him to stop all action in Family Court (mom was putting a lot of pressure on them, as you can all imagine.)

Why is it that mothers rarely pay child support when they lose custody?

Because - Adults Suck.

9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

Adults Suck - Part Two (The root causes of teen pregnancies)
Why teenage pregnacy is out of control and the politics behind it,
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM

My letter to the Washington Post - Lowering teenage pregnancies
Lowering teenage pregancies through father involvement after divorce.
9/24/2007 12:10:16 AM